Algo drástico tiene que pasar Roger Hallam BBC HardTalk Extinction Rebellion
[Music] welcome to hard talk I'm Stephen Sankar back in 2015 the nations of the world made a formal commitment to act to keep global warming well below two
degrees centigrade so much for fine words global greenhouse gas emissions are still rising the data suggests the planet is warming at an alarming rate what to do about it well my guest today is Roger Allen co-founder of extinction rebellion a movement dedicated to mass resistance and civil disobedience how far are the climate rebels prepared to go [Music] [Music] Roger Hallam welcome to hard talk there is and has been for years no been no shortage of activists groups committed to fighting for the cause of fighting climate change why the need now for extinction rebellion well I think the reasons really straightforward is millions of people around the world have realized that have come to the point where something drastic after has to happen and nothing is happening and that means you have to stop breaking the law in order to make change happen when you say nothing is happening that seems to defy the truth that we see around us not only are there heaps of different activists organizations working to further the ideas behind mitigating climate change but governments around the world as I mentioned in the introduction have signed up to the Paris agreement they are committed to doing what well this is a massive lie going on which is things are happening but they're not and billions of people have realized that the government's have been lying for the last 30 years and the elites have been lying and the experts are being lying and the reason they've been lying is because they've said that carbon emissions will go down and they're going to act to make sure they go down but they haven't they've gone up 60 percent since 1990 and they're still going up as you said they went up 1.
6 percent two years ago and 2.
7 last year so this was the decade when it was all supposed to start happening wasn't that but it's not so people very angry people in a rage people don't want their kids to die you know this is a there's no words to describe how serious it is but I I guess what I'm getting to is is this point what's different about you I mean we've had for example the the leader of Greenpeace in this studio he's talk in very similar terms about about the alarming rate of the warming of the planet he's talked about the rise in emissions he talked about the concentration of co2 in the atmosphere getting worse all that stuff I mean so on the science there's no disagreement but are you saying that groups like Greenpeace and many many others have fundamentally failed in their mission to convince the world that things need to change yes we fundamentally failed I mean I failed other activists or failed campaigners have failed we've all failed the fact of the matter is were facing mass starvation in the next ten years social collapse and the possible extinction of human race it couldn't be worse so that situation has come about over 30 years of failure failure by the elites failure by the governments and failure by components your message is entirely about failure it's about negativity it is in a way I suppose a howl of rage and despair that's right it is and you think that is a message the the people of the world and the political leaders of the world are going to respond to yes and the reason why is because when people go through depression and rage they come out and decide to do things an extinction rebellion is the most successful climate change movement in the UK only set up a year ago it's got a hundred thousand people signed up to it it's a mass civil disobedience he's changed the conversation in this country and the reason why it's done that is because it's dedicated to telling the truth and the truth is there in this beyond terrible situation and is being brought about by the elites and governments lines people and misleading people over 30 years aren't you lying and misleading people too because you are suggesting it is possible for example in the United Kingdom where the group was founded that we could in the UK move to net zero carbon emissions by 2025 and that really isn't possible because it's possible anything's possible it's a matter of whether is political well okay let me rephrase the question it's not possible within the framework of our capitalist economy without causing unimaginable damage to people's lives well the damage is imaginable and it's proportionate and it's necessary because the alternative is social collapse that's the fundamental realization people have come to there's not a third option here of carrying on business issues you know the problem isn't that the reason I began by discussing where you sit within this sort of the climate change in environmental movement is that you are an outlier among so many people who agree like you that there is now a climate emergency for example the energy and climate intelligence unit which sympathizes with much of the message that you deliver does not sympathise at all with some of the objectives and targets you lay out because they say that for example the the net zero emissions by 2025 is technically economically and politically impossible has absolutely no chance of being fulfilled well they're wrong you know we can do whatever we like in our society is a matter of whether we're prepared to undertake the costs of that the fact of the matter is and this is the major point extinction rebellion is trying to say is this over right for this civilization the reason is so because of the hard physics we're not making a political Boyan or an ideological point or you know xx all occurred or all the rest of it we're simply saying that the science is real the science is real it means we're facing social collapse the reason we're facing social collapse is cause of mass starvation and the reason we're gonna have mass starvation is because of the collapse in the weather systems around the world yeah I I'm talking about the degree to which you say action the most radical form of action has to be completed within the next six years which is what you are saying you're suggesting you're setting a target which would mean that people couldn't use combustion engine vehicles anymore they couldn't fly and they couldn't use gas to heat their homes anymore and I put it to you that suggesting that is possible makes you a Fanta cyst it's like going to the doctor and a doctor says you've got cancer and if you carry on as normal you're definitely gonna die okay or you can try and change but you might still die those the options for the human race now if we to believe for science so with respect I don't think the science is saying that we're all gonna die within six years no no no what we say well what the science is saying is it was not fundamental major change in the structure of the global economy in the next ten years then we're heading for to catastrophe you know and what that means is we're going to be heading for mass social collapse and mass starvation do you acknowledge that the message you are peddling and it is full of past failure deep negativity the most urgent of alarms and emergencies for right now do you accept that it can't be successful as a sort of movement without taking the public with you but the public is starting to get round to the idea that we're facing social collapse but before April before there were twelve hundred arrests in the streets of London in the biggest civil disobedience protesting British history the British public didn't have any opinion on the climate emergency afterwards 67% of British public agree there is one do you want to bring down the the capitalist system as we know it the capitalist system is going to be brought down by itself the capitalist systems at this point and clear-rite the capitalist system the global system that we're in is in the process of destroying itself and it will destroy itself in the next ten years the reason for that is because it's destroying the climate the climate is what's necessary to grow food if you can't grow food you'll be starvation and social collapse now the problem is is people new leads and people in the BBC people in the governmental sector cannot get their heads around what's actually happening the fact of the matter is if you go out and talk to ordinary people in the street they're aware of this and that's why hundreds of thousands of people around the world decided to take action active on the climate is that the the emergency is here it's now and we have to no I don't think you have to see to ask you about the degree to which you see yourself as a revolutionary is that how you would characterize you there's a revolution coming anyway it's irrelevant well I know what you're trying to do is trying to say there's these radical people everything's ok and they're trying to change stuff you know and if they weren't there being like annoying things could carry on the fact of the matter is if we don't change things they're going to be ten ten times worse and those are the two options that's why I'm telling you about the analogy of the doctor when you go and see a doctor you don't blame the doctor you don't accuse the doctor being revolutionary right because the rib the doctor is simply telling you what the sciences and the science is we're going to have social collapse or we're going to try and do something about it well whether it is a science is different from politics you're taking science and then you're putting a political interpretation on what it means there's no political interpretation here let me put you a former head of the Metropolitan Police counter-terror Command who has studied your movement he says extinction rebellion is seeking the breakdown of democracy and the state he regards you as akin to a dangerous terrorist organization well you're telling me that you're going to take the public with you when a former police chief is suggesting that you actually are anarchists who want to bring down the state in our democratic system you think the public is ready for that the public is now aware that the elites are taking them to their death because that's what the science is saying all the people that are betraying this country and this nation or the people in lilies like the guy you've just mentioned because they're refusing to accept the reality and that's why there will be mass social disturbances over the next year or two you stood in the European parliamentary elections as an independent with this message in London more than 2 million voters you managed to garner 924 and you're telling me the public is living alongside you the 67 percent of the public node as a climber j'en see if you know there's a climate emergency it means that we're facing a situation more serious than we've ever had to deal with in the whole British history politicians are now talking of climate emergencies making the leap from talking of a climate emergency to the mass civil disturbances disruption the bringing down of the state as we know it that's something quite different how far are you prepared to go we've seen let's say hundreds sometimes maybe even a thousand or two of your extinction rebellion colleagues and activists on the streets of London gluing themselves to buildings gluing themselves to roads disrupting traffic once even disrupting public transport which too many seemed a bit odd but how far are you prepared to take this mass civil disobedience this October thousands of people come to the streets of London and they'll stay on the streets of London how long I don't know because it'd be up to them but you'll see mass disturbances will be nonviolent he'll be respectful when it'll be disruptive and that's the methodology that we're using that's the method we're using you say carefully you say nonviolent in previous comments you've said of your protests demonstrations civil disobedience that quote some people may die I wondered what you meant by that because in civil disobedience struggles over the last 150 years when you when you challenge the elites as Gandhi says you know first ignore you then they laugh at you and then they fight you when they fight you then they tend to kill people and that's historically what happens I'm just stating that's a fact a sociological fact you know when Martin Luther King used to do Civil Rights campaign's in 1960s people got killed and that's part of the process of political change you you're carefully manipulating this aren't you you said people will see in the evening news 10 year olds and grannies getting dragged off by the police I believe you've made a particular point of extinction rebellion of teaching sort of civil disobedience methods to to young people including schoolchildren well why do you why I'm on the front why do you think school children and grannies are getting involved in putting themselves in harm's way to get arrested why do you think that's happening well I'm asking you why you're encouraging them well I'm not himself I'm not putting anyone okay what I mean why I'm involved in do you are actually encouraging children to achieve if grannies turn up to a meeting or in tears about what's happening to their grandchildren it's not it's not what I'm doing that makes them sit down the road is the same with teenagers teenagers are themselves about what's happening for the future they've got another 50 60 70 years to live on this planet by that time there could be only a billion people left I mean that's 6 billion people that have died from a starvation or being slaughtered in law I mean you know the scale of it is beyond the imagination is now and this is the business the biggest problem is the elites and the BBC and the conventional media has simply not graphs the enormity of what's happening well never mind the elites it seems that many people even who were involved in the early days of extinction rebellion like yourself think you are going far too far what I've said and this is the fundamental problem I'm listening very carefully no I don't think you are you're listening but you're not emotionally connecting and this is the problem you know I've just spent a year doing interviews like this with journalists and journalists are not emotionally connecting with what's happening I am talking about the slaughter death and starvation six billion people this century that's what the science predicts that's the projectory we're on and that requires absolutely desperate measures to stop it and it's going to be painful leave me i it's going to Beijing in the sense that I'm a citizen just as you are I am going to be just as much prey to everything that's happening with our planet as you yeah but I don't know what age you are but you're not gonna be on this planet for that much longer neither am i if you're a teenager you can see this happening over the next 50 60 years why do you think and I am engaging with you but I'm not sure you're engaging with me why do you think so many people even inside extinction rebellion think that you have gone too far when you recently said you wanted to put drones up around Heathrow to ensure that Heathrow Airport was closed down there were people inside your own organization who said hang on a minute that is not what we are about you have to consider consider strategy in a way that you're not doing the fact of the matter is with the aviation industry and the whole carbon economy all this all this activity is bringing us to destruction and as people in extinction very in any other networks who as an act of conscience are going to be taking action against debt I'll give you a quote from somebody I don't know if you know him personally but Simon McKibben a lecturer at Cambridge University joined extinction rebellion has now left specifically because he was horrified and upset by your plan to shut down Heathrow with drones he said threatening to fly drones into a busy airspace is a departure from the ethics of non-violence it threatens people puts people at risk he said I believe if this is permitted to go ahead we'll lose the good will of the public why do you could persist with this because we're facing mass starvation and because people generally in a society and particularly people in the elites are not capable and are not empathizing that reality when you put those drones up myself well it's justified this is what's coming down the road and if the release don't respond to nonviolent action then you know what's going to come next these people over the next Engstrom billion will use violence that's what's coming down the road I mean I'm speaking as an associate adjust here I'm not saying it's good or bad what I'm saying is if you put a society and a massive in not a massive amount of stress if you've proposed will you will you just leave MIT just let me finish this if you let if you tell the citizens of country that the government is facilitating their death then you can expect one thing particularly in a country like Britain where people that put up with such nonsense you're right you can expect rebellion will you just answer the question will you try to close down Heathrow Airport with drones it hasn't been decided it hasn't been decided and I don't want to talk about specific things because that's not to me right that's up to the people that are engaged in it what I can say to you is this is what's coming down the line doesn't this strike you that if you were serious about trying to lobby pressure change policy where it matters most you'd be working in Washington DC Beijing maybe Moscow maybe Riyadh Saudi Arabia it's very easy and in democracies like Britain to to get people out on the streets to glue yourself to Reglan as it is ultimately a democracy but in many parts the world which matter most of this particular debate there is no possibility of extinction rebellion mostly civil disobedience campaigns of last 100 years have happened in poor or Fred herion countries and one of the fact of the matter is when people have had enough they all under to undertake sacrifice in order to bring change and that's the most effective way according to the scholarship of bringing about rapid change in a society is mass participation civil disobedience and when it comes to this mass participation you said thousands on the streets do you really believe with the methodology you've talked about in this interview the mindset you bring to this you are going to win the hearts and minds of the public not just in this country but publics around the world I think it's inevitable I think it's inevitable yes I mean the major question now is have we left ik too late see listen I'm just mindful of international examples Australia recently had an election the center-left went instead election promising major cuts in greenhouse gas emissions over the next few years the centre-right went into that election saying no we're not because it will damage jobs it will damage industry we're actually going to open up new coal fields across Queensland one of the biggest states in Australia the center-right one yes so what's happening is the level of rage in countries is increasing exponentially and it hasn't crit it hasn't hit that critical mass in many countries yet but it's going to hit that critical mass very quickly and it will shock the elites it's going to shock the governments with with this intensity because a critical mass of people are starting to realise what's going on which is the elites and the governments aren't actually going to do anything they're not going to fulfill their primary responsibility which is to look after the people do you know I think it'll happen quickly it'll happen quickly this isn't something that builds up gradually you don't need Oracle II it happens nothing's happening and then something happens bang and all the media think where did that come from and one hit today to tell you is this is coming right this is coming down the trail III hear your message and you accused me of not emotionally engaging with you and then the course of the conversation I've just been thinking to myself your message is so unrelentingly bleak and negative it's not a message right when you go to the doctor and it tells you you have cancer that's not a message it's the science it's the science but I began by agreeing that there are various people across the environmental green and climate change movements who all agree about the science but come to very different conclusions about the best means of delivering change there are many scientists who actually will not just focus on the negative the bleak and we'll say you know what we human beings are making some progress we are cutting emissions for example in the energy set yeah I've just told you that's total nonsense it's total nonsense you shouldn't you shouldn't be sensitivity and hope hope that would hope you see no room for hate when you go to a doctor the doctors got a responsibility to tell you whether you've got cancer or not on whether it's terminal or not hope doesn't come into it it's a matter of scientific analysis shows you like x-ray of your lungs or whatever right it's a scientific reality the Arctic's melting right its eyes it's warm is melting it's going to go whether you've got fearful of it or you're hopeful about or you've got a political problem with it it's gone alright it's going that's the way the world is there's a harsh thing you know science doesn't have any sentimentality about it it's not a political thing it's not a sort of give or take sort of thing Roger Allen we have to win there but I thank you very much for being on our talk Thanks [Music] [Music] [Music].
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